Keep You Hands to Yourself

[katiekat]

Ok. I need to vent. If you read my post yesterday you know my conference for Sean was not so great. Now today the teacher had to talk to me AGAIN about Sean's inability to keep his hands (and feet) off other kids.
Other things I don't get so mad over-I know he's squirmy,distracted and tends to interrupt but him hitting,kicking,and pushing others I will just not tolerate. I have spoken to him repeatedly about this with no good results. I know I would be upset if another child was hitting my kid so I just cant having him doing these things. This was a very big problem in pre-school which is now starting up in kindergarten. Last year eventually the kids got fed up with it and wanted nothing to do with him. They complained about him all the time to the teacher. I dont want him to end up like that again. The teacher told me today he kept kicking another child who asked him to stop and when he didnt that child walked away but Sean followed him and kept kicking-that is when she got involved,after she gave them a chance to work it out themselves.
I do not ever hit him and I have talked to him about how it feels to get hit by other kids, and how it's not a good feeling and it's not acceptable blah,blah,blah but it's not sinking in. Im out of ideas-anyone have a suggestion?

[unicorn-tiff'smom]

Katie - so sorry that you are having troubles like this. I am not sure what to tell you besides what you have been doing, telling him not to and what it feels like. Have you asked him in a way that it would draw out the emotions that he would feel if someone did it to him?

Not the same example, but Tiff can get a little bossy. I have asked her before how she would feel if others told her all the time what to do and how and when to do it. And she tells me how she feels. And it stops. I told her that others won't want to come over or invite her to their house, etc.

Hope Sean will realize the implications before he loses good friends.

[misty]

Hmmmm.....I think Uni brings up a good point about getting him to "hear" the emotional side of the issue. I'm wondering if this is another good candidate for role playing excersizes. Have him be the other kids & you be him. Follow him around kicking him (or whatever other things he does...and gently, you dont want to hurt him, just annoy him) and then ask him after how he felt, what went through his mind, etc. Maybe he has no idea how it feels to be on the recieving end. Maybe it'll enlighten him to how his actions affect his friends.

[lillian]

Hmm. I'm wondering if this is a sensory issue. Does he do this in general, like when he's playing with one or two other children, or only when he is in crowded situations with other children, like classrooms, standing in line, parties, etc. ?

[katiekat]

I see him get physical in a few different situations. I don't believe it's sensory. When he gets mad at a friend(like they wont do what he says) he will hit, when he's playing something physical as soon as things don't go his way he will hit and mostly just to annoy people. I think he truly enjoys getting a rise out of others. I see him do this quite often to my other son. The other day he was kicking his grandfather and when he told him to stop he just kept going.He thought it was funny. I then told him to stop and asked him why he felt the need to intentionally annoy people he said"because it's fun" and laughed. He is very aware of what he is doing.

[Charlie Girl]

I think the role playing idea is a good idea to try. He has to connect with the other children's feelings and identify what he is doing to what they are experiencing. Hopefully he will realize through experiencing being on the receiving end that its not fun and is losing him friends.

I would also tell him that one of these days when he hits or kicks, the kid is going to fight back and when that happens, you won't get involved because he is asking for it.

This isn't the exact same thing but its similar. My son gets very bossy and would yell at other kids and call them names when he didn't get his way. I finally told them in front of him that they didn't need to stay and take that treatment and when he got like that, to tell him they wouldn't play with him until he stopped, then to go play with someone else. It took a while but it did work. He found out it isn't acceptable. I was surprised that it took the other kids so long before they got fed up that I had to point out to them that they didn't need to take it.

He sitll gets mad when he doesn't get his own way but is much more likely to come home and tell me about it. I'd rather he rant and get it out of his system at home where I can then present the other person's point of view. He calms down quicker now also.

[katiekat]

I'm going to try the role playing with him today,not sure it will work because I think he'll just think it's funny but Im going to give it a try.
He knows about getting hit back but it doesnt seem to deter him. He hits my older son who is 10 and for the longest time I always said don't hit him back he's younger than you just come tell me and I'll take care of it. At some point my husband said you know what-just let Joe hit him back and maybe he'll learn. But he hasn't.
I'll let you know how the role playing goes.

[Charlie Girl]

I think the role playing may have an effect if you hound him with it like he does others. Follow him around and keep after him the same way he does to others until he is extremely annoyed . Even after he is irritated and tells you to quit, keep going until you are satisfied he understands. You have to show him how not fun it is.

[katiekat]

Role playing exercise went as I thought. I told him I was him and he was another little boy I kicked him(lightly) and he asked me to stop, I said no and kept kicking. He then said Im going to tell the teacher, I shrugged my shoulders and kept kicking. Then it became funny he just giggled and started running around like a nut. Maybe next time I'll kick harder.Just kidding. We'll see how today goes.

[Charlie Girl]

I can just see that. Mom chasing him kicking and him thinking its all a game. I wish we had their ability to find humor in everything.

Hopefully the lesson will stick with him and he will think about it next time he wants to kick someone. It should be a memorable experience at least.

We'll keep looking for things that have worked for others. There has to be something.

[notellin]

My son did this kind of stuff at 4/5 yrs old. Talking was not working. Finally, I resorted to pictures because he's visual. I did the road thing. A road with a fork, smiley face on one fork, crying face on the other fork. The smiley face has friends b/c he does not hit, and the crying face has none b/c he hits. He plays alone. This worked b/c my son was immature for his age. I put this picture on the fridge. Every morning I asked what road he would chose today. I also taped another one on the back of my seat in the car, so it was right in front of his face on the way to school. I'm sure this sound silly, but this is what worked for me. It has not helped for keeping his hands to himself in general, just for the hitting, which was what I was desperate to stop.

[Linda]

notellin said:

My son did this kind of stuff at 4/5 yrs old. Talking was not working. Finally, I resorted to pictures because he's visual. I did the road thing. A road with a fork, smiley face on one fork, crying face on the other fork. The smiley face has friends b/c he does not hit, and the crying face has none b/c he hits. He plays alone. This worked b/c my son was immature for his age. I put this picture on the fridge. Every morning I asked what road he would chose today. I also taped another one on the back of my seat in the car, so it was right in front of his face on the way to school. I'm sure this sound silly, but this is what worked for me. It has not helped for keeping his hands to himself in general, just for the hitting, which was what I was desperate to stop.

I don't think it sounds silly at all if it is working Alot of our kids have poor impulse control and it sounds like you have found something that works! WTG

[katiekat]

I think this sounds like a great idea and something that will appeal to Sean. I'm trying this one!

[crazyhouse]

I have one more idea for you my girlfriend has an older child who was just diagnosed wiht ADHD and he was struggling in school bad grades unprepared no homework misbehaving, anyways they made him get signatures from all his teachers stateing he was prepared, behaved, had homework if he got 4 no's on his sheet for the day he would get a detention. :)My friend asked is there any incentives for when he does do a great job and they looked at her funny (teachers and the principal) She offered to bring in a big bag of candy, if he got all yeses for the day he gets a piece of candy if he does this for a month he gets Burger King for lunch. He has already succeeded once! The principal is trying this on several childeren. My suggestion is to get the teacher involved (maybe she can put a note in his bag each day saying we kept our hands to ourselves) if he gets a good report maybe you can reward him with a sticker or long term once a week a piece of candy or small toy he wants. I have found when they are really good a small reward is like a million bucks, and when they are bad a loss of a privledge (something they adore)hurts like jail time Jake is 5 yrs too! that is one of our parent teacher goals to keep our hands to ourselves. You are not alone

[katiekat]

I think this is a good idea and I have suggested something similar.HOWEVER my son's teacher refuses to send home any kind of note regarding behavior. She says it is"dwelling on the negative." I call it laziness. We have a meeting next month(again) and I am insisting on a complete evaluation(so far they have just done Conners Rating) to find out if he is eligible for 504 or IEP.

[crazyhouse]

The next step to take with your sons teacher, is to be blunt and to the point! Your son needs her to send home a note everyday(it is not to much to ask by the way) if you want him to succeed at keeping his hands to himself. If she does not approve of this simple task. Your next step is to go to the principal of the school with your complaint. (Your tax dollars pay these people they are there to make learning transitions easier thats there job) If the principal feels you are just being an over dilligent mom. You can explain you want to reward your child for good behavior but for it to work you can not rely on your childs truthfulness. That might teach him to lie to get the reward. If he still feels this is not neccasary (very doubtful) You have one last option that you should tell the principal about. THE SCHOOL DISTRICT and the news media. I have a child that has food allergies, Asthma, Excema and ADHD. I can tell you the 2 schools he has been to. Have been more than accomidating in his medical and social needs. If they weren't I would have one heck of a fight on my hands. :(So I hope this helps every child is not created the same out of one text book, and they all deserve to be taught in a way that is easiest for the child to understand. Good Luck

[notellin]

I don't think the school has to provide feedback like this if it is not in an IEP or 504. You need to stay on good terms, also. I would just request that he be evaluated and then if he is eligible for and IEP or 504, then have the daily reported added to it.

[crazyhouse]

Whether or not you son is on an IEP or a 504, should not define what kind of care a child gets in the classroom. My son has had an IEP for 2 and half years now where they discuss his care and needs once a year. If Jake needs a change in his plan of learning they make it. An older child has to sit with my son on the way home from school, it wasn't a project to ask a child to sit next to him everyday. He cant go in the lunch room due to food allergies. If it is for a special event like a bake sale or Santas Attic. Someone stays with him in the hall or in the room. In gym his teacher knows if he does to much running around he will go into an asthma attack, the teacher feels it is not to much to ask for him to go running down the hallway to the nurse for his inhaler. Every child and Adult that come in contact with him are expected to wash there hands before class because of Jakes food allergies. It's not to much to ask because they genuinley care about his well being. I particapate in all the class parties, and put alot of time in at school.

If you use the correct language with the right avenues, you are not doing anything wrong. As long as you treat people with the same respect you want to be treated with. The principal is there to help you not get you in trouble were adults now. I'm sure they would be more then understanding to the situation.

You will do what you know is right for your child. I have and have not had problems with the system, it's my 5 year old that is the problem most of the time

[lillian]

Katiekat,

If the teacher won't send home a note regarding behavior, how do you know about his poor behavior in class? Is she calling you? I think it's odd she won't send anything home, especially at your son's age. It's quite common for teachers to do behavior charts and such with children your son's age. As far as focusing on the negative, if she put some positive behaviors in there, as should be done with behavior charts, then she wouldn't be focusing on the negative.

[katiekat]

Lillian, I completely agree with you. Our main concern was lack of communcation when Sean started kindergarten. This was our big problem in pre-school so I did not want it to start up again. I have asked for at least a weekly behavior report several times. I told her exactly what she could do because she seemed very put out by my request. I told her I would even make up a chart for her myself. I told her I have worked in special education for 5 years and I know that this is a very common practice. Once I even had the guidance counselor call me and ask me what I thought of the changes they made with Sean in class. I had no idea what she was talking about...because the teacher does not communicate with me. All I get is an"I need to talk to you" when I pick him up. ANYWAY we have a meeting on 12/11 with her,counselor,principal, and head of special services and I will be sure to let them know how unhappy I am and that I am by no means ignorant about my rights.

[notellin]

In the meantime, why not call or show up on Fridays right after class and get the info you need verbally.

[lostmyshoe]

Katie,

Sorry I hadn't had a chance to reply to your post. I've had a hard time like you are with one of Becca's teachers before. Sometimes teachers don't want to go the extra mile and that makes it so much harder to get the help for your child you need. In my case we just wound up dealing with that teacher for the year and moving on. The teacher retired after my daughter's class. In my opinion, she was much too old to still be teaching because she was unkind and had no patience at all. I regret that I didn't do more and let my daughter and myself be intimidated by that teacher. That was probably Becca's worst year in school and her true abilities were not reflected. This was before she was diagnosed with ADD and had a 504 plan in place. You do have to try to get along with the teacher but you have every right to insist that your son's needs be met. I sure wish I had, and my daughter wouldn't have had such a miserable 2nd grade year. If I had to do it over again I would have changed her teachers. Maybe that is an option if you are getting no cooperation from this teacher. Just something else to think about. Thinking of you and hoping you can get all the help for your son that you need as soon as possible.

[katiekat]

Thanks Losty . Unfortunately she is the only kindergarten teacher. I have gotten along with her and not made any waves and then later I kick myself for it. At our meeting in Dec. I am going to insist on a complete evaluation. Then if he's eligible for 504 or IEP it wont just be between her and I.
I'm sorry Becca had to have such an awful year and I'm glad things are better for her now.
I don't want Sean to hate school-especially so young.

[notellin]

You cannot insist on a complete evaluation at a meeting unless it is an IEP meeting. There are no minutes taken at other meetings. Verbal requests do not count. If it's not in writing, or at an IEP meeting with you making sure it's noted in the minutes, then you did not say it. I am not kidding you! Document, document , document. And when you do request it, they have DAYS just to respond and send you the authorization request to complete evaluations. Then once you sign it they have days, no months, to actually complete the evaluations. An entire school year could go by after you start without your child actually receiving any help at all.

[misty]

Send the request to the school return receipt requested. Notellin is correct that verbal requests don't count & they often get ignored. I sent the letter to the special ed dept at my school districts admin building. If I hadn't have done that, I might still be waiting.

[crazyhouse]

Hey just curious could you take your son to your pediatric DR and be diagnosed through your private physician and then, bring something to school like a physical of some sort? It's just a thought. My sons ADHD was diagnosed at 2 and half at the peds office. (It was very obvious and very hereditary) The refferal lady gave me the name of some type of social worker through our county that came out to the house did a full work up on him. Then suggested Pre kindergarten for special needs kids. He spent 2 years there (wonderful staff) :-*They put his IEP in place right away and then the kindergarten teacher, phychiatrist, speech pathologist, and a social worker(on top of the staff at the school he was in)came to his last IEP meeting at the pre K school to make the transition smooth it was awesome. ;D They were right on top of everything every school should be that way. It never hurts to ask.

One more thing I show up at Jake's Kindergarten around once a week it is a great way to find out what he has been up to. This week he was silly all week Good Luck

[katiekat]

Thanks No and Misty for the reminder. I dont know what I was(not)thinking.
He has been diagnosed ADHD(I think) by the district. They did the Conners Rating Scale. DOES that mean he is diagnosed? Or does it mean nothing?

[lillian]

Because ADHD falls under Other Health Impaired, it's always best to have a physician's dx, preferably a psychiatrist. If at all possible, find a psychiatrist who will make a list of recommended accommodations and/or modifications your child MUST HAVE to be academically successful, and attach the dx with the recommendations to the letter you write to the school, requesting a complete psycho/educational evaluation. You don't want the school dxing your son.

[lostmyshoe]

Katie,

When it was brought to my attention the possibility of my daughter having ADD I called my insurance company to see if I could take my daughter to a psychiatrist on their list for an evaluation and testing. Luckily for me they covered it with us paying a co-pay. I made the decision early on that I wanted to handle this myself and it turned out to be the right decision. I found a psychiatrist that specialized in ADD/ADHD and got a formal diagnosis. I also got a diagnosis from an Audiologist. I did not leave it in the school's hands at all. I wanted to be totally in the drivers seat and make all the decisions and I did. When we had the complete analysis, test results and evaluation all on paper, my psychiatrist came to the school with me and we sat down with them and layed out a 504 plan for my daughter. Everything was decided at this meeting and a formal directive was printed up with all of my daughters needs listed. Check out all of your options and the more you can be in the drivers seat the better. That worked out the best for us.

[Charlie Girl]

katiekat said:

Thanks No and Misty for the reminder. I dont know what I was(not)thinking.
He has been diagnosed ADHD(I think) by the district. They did the Conners Rating Scale. DOES that mean he is diagnosed? Or does it mean nothing?

The school district can't diagnose. You have to have a medical doctor or a psychiatrist diagnose. What the district can do is an evaluation, then they give you some papers to take to your doctor. He will use those to help determine whether or not its ADHD.

The school did tell me they believed from the tests that my son had ADHD but that to receive a 504 or IEP I had to have a diagnosis. You don't have to have one to get a 504 and I did get one for my son in one school but it was a battle.