Not Able to Remember...what is this?

[katiekat]

I have a concern about Sean that really worries me. He seems unable to retain information and/or relay it. It's become much more of an issue since he started kindergarten. I have researched LDs high and low or the internet but cant seem to find anything that this fits into.

After school the other kids run out and tell their moms what they did that day-when I ask Sean he says he cant remember. I will ask him specific questions to make it easier on him like what did you have for snack, did you go outside and still he doesnt know, cant remember or says I remember but dont know what its called.

Also when I get worksheets home from school and go over them with him again he cant remember what he learned. Yesterday they learned about the flag-how many stripes and stars so I asked him how many stripes? I dont know. I say there are 13 stripes. 30 seconds later I ask again-already he has forgotten .I say 13 stripes 10X in a row then ask again- he doesnt know.

We went to my friends house yesterday,she moved in July but he has been there at least 10 times when we pull up he has no idea where we are "I dont know whose house this is" I try to give him hints but he cant remember until he actually sees her. Sometimes 1/2 hour after he eats lunch he will tell me I forgot to give him lunch. When I tell him I gave him lunch he cant remeber what he ate. I am at a loss.
He spoke early as a baby and has a great vocabulary and speaks clearly this is what always throws me when I think I found something that describes him. Any ideas?

[misty]

It sounds like a Low Working Memory. Shannon has that too & the psychologist that tested her said that was her major concern & would pose more problems than the ADD & LD's together. The only thing I know to do is go over & over & over & Over the SAME things until they leave the Working memory & become internalized into long term memory. Its a slow, painful process, but the only way I know of (so far) to improve it.

[katiekat]

See Misty-that's why you are The Most Helpful! Is Low Working Memory considered a LD or is it a "symptom" of ADHD? I just googled it and am confused.

[misty]

It seems to come along with ADHD sometimes but its classified in with LD. When I googled "Low working memory LD" I got a lot more info than when I left the LD off.

[leigh]

Oh my goodness, Katiekat. I was just about to sign off and saw the title of your thread here and HAD to respond. I'm dealing with concern right now over my TEN year old's memory. He has always had a terrible memory. He never had anything to tell me about school in the early years, and he struggled with everything it seemed.

LATELY, though, the concern I've had convinced me to see the school psychologist (she actually manages over a large number of schools in this county).

Over the summer, my son would say things that indicated he either had no memory of something recent.......or he was just making zero sense. A FEW times, he actually said the words, "My short term memory is bad." At first I thought he heard that from somewhere and just thought it was cool to say, but now I know something else is going on.

Example: We drove past a McDonalds over the summer while on the way to a different McDonalds. He said, "We aren't going to that one, are we? It stinks in there." I told him that wasn't true at all. He said, "Yes it is. Ian (his friend) said the last time he went in that McDonalds, it was really stinky in there." Well, I was at a stop light. I kind of turned around and started going on about how I'm tired of him not thinking for himself and that he needs to learn to come to his OWN conclusions about things. THEN I said, "So listen. Don't tell me that McDonald's is stinky because Ian said so." My son then said, "I didn't say Ian said it's stinky." He was so insistant about this, that I actually enlisted my FIVE year old's help. "Didn't he say Ian said it's stinky?, " I asked. He said, "Yeah. You said that." He still insisted he didn't say it. Finally, though, he just said, "Really?" OMG!


Then there's the fact that he studies with me for his tests, knows EVERYTHING the night before the test, then makes a 75 on the test......having made the most ridiculously careless mistakes and writing things in blanks that make no sense at all.

So I'm right there with you. I have to say, I'm ADD (diagnosed "hyperkinetic" around 35 years ago), and my ten year old was diagnosed at age 5, and this is the first time I've heard the phrase "Low Working Memory." I'm going to look it up. The psychologist said there were a number of tests that could be done and that we'll be monitoring this concern with the teachers this nine weeks in school. I guess I'll know more later.

[lostmyshoe]

I wish I had something to add to this thread but I don't have information on this. I did however see a great post that Misty put in the School Issues section on learning to spell. Something you might want to check out.

[leigh]

lostmyshoe said:

I wish I had something to add to this thread but I don't have information on this. I did however see a great post that Misty put in the School Issues section on learning to spell. Something you might want to check out.

Hmmm. Want to know something weird that just dawned on me? My son (the one I described above) excels at spelling tests. He almost always makes 90 to 100 on his weekly tests. That's definitely something that requires memory. BUT.....whenever he's just writing freestyle, he misspells things all the time.

His short-term memory is scary in regards to so many other things, though. I wonder how much of the issue is a combination of not caring enough to bother with detail if the topic isn't interesting or simple....and too many little details causing him to just be overwhelmed.......and just having something bigger on his mind. Rereading what I just wrote makes it seem like just typical ADHD. I don't know.

What do you notice and think about this in regards to your son, katiekat? Are there some things your son can easily remember that contradict short term memory problems (like my son with all A's on his spelling tests) ?

[jj]

Leigh,
I was sort of thinking along those lines too. That it is just typical ADHD. I can forget something just as fast as it was told to me. I have no explanation why it vanishes from my brain but then another day someone tells me something along the same lines....like "will you pick up milk at the store" and I'll remember.

My sister says my neice doesn't retain anything from the days schooling so she goes over it and over it, etc.. She says it is like everything they did the day before was a waste of time and they have to start all over the next day.

A prime example of her lack of memory just happened yesterday. She was outside and being the cute little blossoming "new" girl in the neighborhood she had about 6 boys (some older) hanging around her in a matter of minutes....my gosh word travels fast in this neighborhood, yikes. Anyway, my sister was concerned what intentions these boys had (like we don't know, LOL) and asked my neice what they were all talking about. She couldn't tell us a single thing they were talking about. The only thing that she finally came up with was they were talking about "skiddles", the candy. She just turned 12 so I don't think she is purposely withholding information. I honestly think she just doesn't remember. I could be wrong.

Oh, I forgot to add so am editing: My neice can remember every kind of horse there is, maybe not spell it correctly. She can tell you all about cats and dogs. So she does have "selective" memory??

I can't help but wonder if- the more severe the ADHD- the worse the memory?

[katiekat]

Leigh, Since Sean just started kindergarten Im not too sure about things such as spelling that he DOES remember well. He cannot remember most letters and numbers from one minute to the next. We went over 5 letters last night that he doesnt know for about 30 min over and over and over and he still doesnt know them. He literally forgot them within 60 seconds. He does have long term memory-like he can remember what someone got him for his birthday a year ago or a trip we took but as far as what he's learned in pre k and kdgtn nothing seems to stick. I never heard of Low Working Memory either but it sure seems to fit here. I have worked in special ed for 5 years and to me Seans inability to remember does not seem to be just typical ADHD. I can literally say this is a "H" what letter is this? in one sentence and he has no idea. The older he gets and the more he's expected to know the worse the problem is becoming. I am actually becoming very worried and scared for him.

[misty]

JJ, What you describe with your neice & the horses is not "selective" memory. Its because she cares about horses so much & probably watches & reads so much about them that they are ingrained in her long term memory. My daughter is the same way with animals, Taylor Hicks & country music!

Like what I was saying before, we have to work hard to help kids with low working memories get the things they need to know into their long term memories!

Heres some links to help everyone undersrand:

www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/memory/understand/working_memory.shtml


Working memory makes it possible to hold small amounts of information in mind, while simultaneously carrying out further operations (cognitive, physical, or both). Recent work in the field has suggested that kids with learning difficulties may be characterized as having the general problem of being unable to retain information in memory while simultaneously processing other information.
www.allkindsofminds.org/researchArticles.aspx?topicid=8&constructid=3

Those who have ADD / ADHD tend to be low on “working memory”: the ability to hold information in memory that must be used to make decisions and to guide behavior. Working memory and executive functioning are closely tied. Executive functioning includes the abilities to plan, prioritize, organize, persist, multi-task, move toward a goal, delay gratification, and self-monitor. Executive functioning often involves inhibition and waiting.

The Role of Working Memory in Visual Selective Attention

www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/291/5509/1803

[leigh]

JJ..........that Skittles story sounds familiar. LOL! My son will remember that way......OFTEN.

I agree with Misty about kids easily remembering details about things they love. My son can tell you all you want to know about skateboarding. He's completely and utterly focused on the topic. But ask him to tell you about The Kansas-Nebraska Act, and he stares blankly.

I had to bring that up because we studied that this past week. The study guide was simple to follow. I'd say, "Okay. The Kansas-Nebraska Act was about what two states?" He'd actually look at me and say, "Ummmm........huh?"." So I'd tell him. Then I'd say "Okay. The Kansas-Nebraska Act changed the rules of The Missouri Compromise. Aaron, what did the Kansas-Nebraska Act change?" He said, "I don't know." By the end of the week, he knew all about these things. I quizzed him myself, and he KNEW this stuff! He took the test on Friday and got a 73. I could not believe how EASY the test was and that he missed so many questions. There were only 15 questions. (Hey, are you all still awake after reading that?)


Katiekat, as you can see from the above paragraph, my son has similar issues to your son's when going over school work. He's in 5th grade now. I'm REALLY worried about him going to middle school next year. I've heard enough stories to cause panic on my part.

[katiekat]

Leigh,Our conversations here are identical, just on a different grade level. Going over letters again(which at 6 I just cant believe he doesnt know his alphabet) I know just how you feel. I said what letter is this? He says ummmm......U? I said no its an H, make the H sound, H H H, hot starts with H, house starts with H, horse starts with H. Its an H. Now, what letter is this? His answer-uhhhh....4?
I know middle school is a big difference because I worked in one. Lots of switching classes,having like 6 different teachers and OMG having to remember a locker combination. Im scared about getting this child to first grade. And to top it all off I told the teacher I wanted a communication log started she said shed have to think about it!!! I dont think so lady-we need to communicate here.

[leigh]

katiekat said:

Leigh,Our conversations here are identical, just on a different grade level. Going over letters again(which at 6 I just cant believe he doesn't know his alphabet) I know just how you feel. I said what letter is this? He says ummmm......U? I said no its an H, make the H sound, H H H, hot starts with H, house starts with H, horse starts with H. Its an H. Now, what letter is this? His answer-uhhhh....4?
I know middle school is a big difference because I worked in one. Lots of switching classes,having like 6 different teachers and OMG having to remember a locker combination. Im scared about getting this child to first grade. And to top it all off I told the teacher I wanted a communication log started she said shed have to think about it!!! I dont think so lady-we need to communicate here.

LOL! Yeah, that blank stare with all the "uhhhh's" and "ummmm's" followed by a guess-answer that doesn't make any sense seems to be a very common thing with certain ADHD kids, doesn't it?


As for middle school next year, I guess we'll see. My son MAY have a different experience than "average" only because he's in "small group" (basically special ed). We had no choice but to take him off meds after four years of horrible side effects and so many changes to his meds I wonder if it could have done any damage. As a result of taking him off meds, though, he simply can't focus. Once his grades began to plummet, it was decided he needed "small group" (which usually is between 4 and 8 kids in a class). This is his second year in these classes, and it doesn't look like he'll get out of small group any time soon. I've heard pros and cons to it in middle school. I don't know what to think. We live in a school district that has won so many awards for "academic excellence" (a term that now just kind of makes me want to barf) it's getting to be something you just expect to hear about regularly. Test scores are taken so intensely seriously in this school district.....you wouldn't believe it. We actually moved here for the schools (the reputation was incredible). Now I'm afraid of what they will be expecting of my son in the years to come. Changing classes may not be an issue for him only because his elementary school starts that in third grade. It's usually no more than three different teachers, though.


BTW......I'm surprised your school doesn't do a communication log. I thought all schools did that. Ours (my kindergartener's) are weekly unless there's a problem (with a long check list of expectations out of each child). It lists things like "Follows Directions," "Respects others," "Stays quiet during rest time," "Waits his/her turn," "Works independently." If there's an issue, there will be a specific note at the bottom of the page. I would think maybe you could draw something like this up on your computer and print it out and ask the teacher to fill it out for you once a week. BTW....my 5th grader even comes home with a weekly report. A couple of his teachers in the past even did daily check lists. I guess it's just up to the individual teacher, but I DO think you can request this.

[katiekat]

It sounds like your son goes to school in the district I worked in. Supposedly a great town with great schools and only concerned about test scores and how they look. Do you by any chance live in NJ LOL? I worked in special ed as a 1 on 1 and they really could not care less about your kid if they are in special ed. I actually did not get my contract renewed and lost my job because I reported a teacher's abuse of a non verbal severely handicapped child.
As far as the communication book goes I WILL get one. You would think she would be all for it. I had no communication with Seans pre k teacher and thought everything was going great until one day I was accosted by the director and had to listen to a half hour of all the things hes been doing every day for 3 months! Why didnt you tell me sooner!!?? PS I live in a "Great" school district too.

[jj]

Katiekat,
One thing that caught my attention is the fact that he is confusing similar-looking letters/numbers unless you were just randomly giving examples and not what he actually confused.

It seems it is almost as if he can't see them well enough to see the difference. The U has two lines on the out side, the H has two lines on the outside. The are somewhat straight-lined as is the 4 . Perhaps look closely at the letters/numbers he is confusing, for example 3, 8, E , B may look very much alike to him if he has eye problems or some other visual impairment.

Just a thought.

[katiekat]

I did have this thought at first JJ but I put it to the test already. The letters I gave were just random. The letters he does not know change weekly and he may recognize a letter one day and then not the next. Currently we are working on F,Q,K,J,and Y. They are all quite different. Also whenever he does not know a letter he calls it U so I make a U at the top of the page every time we work on letters. I have a meeting with the teacher tomorrow (yes I've been summoned already) and although it's a behavior complaint Im glad for the meeting as I have ALOT I need to ask her.

[leigh]

Katiekat, good for you for report that teacher. Bummer that you lost your job over it. I know, though, that unless you're a full time teacher in the system, it's easy to lose your job over little things. I have a good friend who is a special ed teacher at my son's school (she assists some kids with pretty big disabilities), and she says she has to be careful of every little thing she says since she's not a full time teacher.


I suppose my son's school is a combination of overly concerned with test scores and still a very good education. They expect the kids to do very well, and if they don't, free tutoring is offered at the school. My son has qualified for that every year since first grade! LOL!!!! There is a ton of money in this county and parent involvement like you wouldn't believe, so a lot of "extras" are available to the students as well.

I'm just really tired, though, of these young kids having to know things that are NOT important right now......and NOTHING they will retain. This year, for my son, he not only has to pass the state test in Reading and Math, but also in science. Oh, please! Is it really necessary that a ten year old is able to explain that the nucleus of an atom is made of protons and neutrons and that the electrons surround the nucleus? Does anyone that age need to know that neutrons have no charge? And how is he going to benefit knowing that Bromine and Mercury are the only two liquid elements? He's FAR more likely to follow a lesson in how to handle MONEY responsibly, and call me crazy, but I THINK he'd actually USE that lesson later in life.

That last part is to be read sarcastically. LOL!!!

[katiekat]

I definitely think life skills are over-looked. My friend is a dental hygienist and she told me that after she sees a patient she hands them a postcard and tells them to address it to themselves. She said 9 out of 10 teens dont know what she means. Some dont know their zip codes! Alot of time is wasted on unecessary things-teach these kids their addresses or maybe how to fill out a job application or write a check.

[lillian]

Memory loss has long been associated with LD's, and it is one of the primary things "looked at" when assessing a child's scores on IQ tests for this reason. Poor short-term memory is associated with dyslexia and executive function issues (which, of course, can include ADHD), poor long-term memory is associated with dyslexia and math disabilities, poor visual memory is associated with spelling difficulties, etc., etc., etc. Not only is memory looked at as a whole, but very specific parts of memory are looked at, as well. For example, my son has very poor long-term memory in word retrieval, which is a big sign of dyslexia.

Remediations for LD's often are concerned with addressing the memory issues associated with the LD. For example, Orton-Gillingham for dyslexia uses multi-sensory teaching and repetition because it is believed that multi-sensory repitition helps the dyslexic child store information in long-term memory, and THAT is one of the predominant reasons why OG is considered to be successful with dyslexics. I've heard many adult dyslexics say that the memory loss associated with dyslexia is much more problematic to them as adults, than the reading and writing issues they face as adults.

[jj]

I had a chance....finally to read those links. I think I get it. Thanks Misty. You are the most helpful!!

[lisacap]

I just read through this board and wanted to add, that my 5 year old who is in Kindergarten also doesn't recognize any of his letters, he can tell you how to spell his name and write it but if I just randomly put a J or U or S on a piece of paper he can't tell me what they are, he has no learning disabilities and is not ADD. When I ask him what he did in school, he also tells me I don't know. I haven't found it to be a concern yet, he did a year of preschool, 3 days a week and last year was in a full day pre- kindergarten. The school doesn't seemed to be worried about it, they told me that is what kindergarten is for, he will learn all the letters and numbers while he is there this year. Christian my 11 yr old ADHD was also in the same class, and it took him longer to recognize the numbers and letters as well, but he was reading by the end of kindergarten and knew them all and how to pronounce them and what sound they made by first grade. Hope it helps. I know he has some disabilities, but today the standards for kindergarten are so much higher then when we were kids, they should just by pass it and make it first grade. Todays kids don't learn any of the social skills in kindergarten like they should, everything is about the gradesand how high they can score on tests. Let him be a 5 or 6 year old, it will come....

[misty]

lisacap said:

I know he has some disabilities, but today the standards for kindergarten are so much higher then when we were kids, they should just by pass it and make it first grade.

You have a good point, Lisa. It made me think back to when I was little. I remember Kindergarten. We PLAYED! I don't remember getting actual work until first grade. I think you're right that kids don't get to be kids enough anymore.

[Charlie Girl]

We played in kindergarten. I think we worked on our ABC's and I remember having to practice tying my shoes.

When my son was going into kindergarten, they told us the kids had to be able to count to 10 and know their ABC's. Fortunately he had been in pre-k and they taught them everything else they needed to know (he would not practice that stuff at home), some of which we didn't even get to in kindergarten.